London Bombers - Are they the Devil
I always find it necessary to distinguish the actions of people in the name of a religion from the religion itself. Religion was always used to justify all kinds of evil.
Religion alweays gets hikjacked to give legitimacy to all kinds of enterprise.
It is a very powerful justification because it will always speek to a lot of people.
I am responsible for what a person from the U.S.A. does in my name.
I am responsible for what a Chritian does in my name.
I am responsible for what one man does to another man.
All it take for evil to exist is one good man to do nothing.
- Last is some quote of someone.
I do hold the majority responsible for monitoring the minority, as I do also hold the one responsible for monitoring and stopping the majority. Life is not without judgment, a judgement will be made.
Andy, you need to step back and think about things. There are about 1 billion muslims in the world--they are not all working "hand in hand with the devil." 99.99% of them are good, honest folks, just the same as for Christians or Hindus or whatever. Generalizations about whole groups of people or entire religions is an intellectually lazy way of getting through life.
I was pleased to see the last comment. It is not right to blame Islam for all these things judt because this group of people is professing to be of Islam. Just like with the christian religions there are always different sects and splintergroups who want to be more radiacl or fundamental jsut as is ocurring in the Jewish relm and the Christian realm. We have something like the Christian right and its folowers whos people have killed abortion doctors etc. (everybody knows about such people). This will not have us condem all of Christianity. I think such generalizations are really short sighted and not thoughtful. It is always easy to generalize and just to condem. Well, this is what we humans like to do I guess.
Thoughtful people and people who think on their own are not the kind of people we are rearing in the world.
The problem I have with ISLAM is that GENERALLY they acqueisce when these devil nut jobs do something like this. I have yet to see a united MUSLIM effort to condemn their actions -- Even after September 11th. It is always, "I don't agree with what they do -- killing civilians and all -- but the West is causing this" OR try this one "It's the fault of Bush's policies " or it is "the troops in Saudi Arabia" or "Palestine" -- always a pirouetting justification.
The west is not causing people to blow themsevles up and injure innocent civilians in the name of Allah. Look at the polls, man. Over half of the MUSLIM population looks favorably on Bin Laden (whom is the devil manifested). What is up with that? Hell this Bin Laden ain't no Rebel James Dean. This a person that supports ANY means to his cause (of which I don't fully understand). It is about time for the Muslims to pick their arses off the ground and stop whining about being the victims of everyone else's policy and make a categorical statement against this VIOLENT interpretation of jihad. Moderate Islam can do good, but the devil allowed for the loop holes in the faith to support violence in the name of the CAUSE. I ain't saying Christians in the past have not acted in the same fashion, but I can tell you now it is categorically out of fashion for killing in the name of...and don't even bring up Iraq. We are making no money, taken HUGE diplomatic gambles, HUGE gambles in human lives and all for the sake of expediting the Middle East out of the Middle Ages.
I could ramble on and on.....
Zerk, I don't think you're listening to what most people in the world have to say (too much Fox News?)
After 9/11 the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia said "...hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood, constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts."
I refer you to http://www.unc.edu/%7Ekurzman/terror.htm for a huge list of condemnations right after the events. A 2 second websearch would have yielded you the same results. This is one of the problems with the split between the West and Islam: neither side actually listens to what the vast majority in the other country are saying. Each side just hears the extermists! Terrorists like those on 9/11 and today in London are scum who deserve the worst, but that DOESN'T give anyone an excuse to hate an entire, and very diverse, religion.
By that token, all Christians are racist, blood-thirsty, war-mongering rapists then surely? Of course they are not, yet some will act badly and use religion as a justification for their actions. These men are not muslims, any more than the Lord's Resistance Army or the IRA are Christian. It is an excuse for them to do the evil they will do anyway.
I am a practising Christian, and I am ashamed that there are people who act this way in the name of what I believe in. And it is the same for Islam. The majority of Muslims are normal, everyday law-abiding folk like you or I and they should not be thought as the same as these men who do this in London.
Besides which, they still have no absolute evidence that "Islamic" extremeists are to blame. It is merely their best guess so far.
Andy , no offense , but your use of
English in this post (and in the reply to the first post) confuses me.
Are you suggesting that any and all Moslems / followers of Islam are "the Devil" and "evil" because of the actions of Al Qaeda?
Admittedly I haven't been reading your
site for very long , but I'm shocked if someone who has apparently traveled
so extensively could have such a simplistic and narrowminded belief about another culture.
Anonymous, I agree with your analysis that FOX news is biased. However, I do not think that Muslims, as a whole, have had an organized effort to RENOUNCE such violence categorically. I am not talking about Heads of state or Mr. Imam saying killing civilians for a cause is baaaad. I am talking about a show of faith across the community and THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED. I know this is a generalization. I know that 94 percent of muslims are law abiding citizens (I sure some break sharia code every day in those districts that IMPOSE this) good peaceful, people. However, I know that if such violent actions were to happen in the Christian community the faith would stand taut and completely resolute against those involved. NO AND, IF, BUTs, etc. I have traveled a LOT and have "some" muslim friends and there seems to be this latent sympathy towards Bin Laden and his gangsters -- like they are the underdogs or the equalizers for injustices done to them by the west. This is what I am calling Bullsh*t.
The problem I have with ISLAM is that GENERALLY they acqueisce when these devil nut jobs do something like this. I have yet to see a united MUSLIM effort to condemn their actions -- Even after September 11th. It is always, "I don't agree with what they do -- killing civilians and all -- but the West is causing this"
So what you're basically saying is that unless everyone in the Middle East toes the American line , shuts up and makes no statement against anything the West does , they're not
"denouncing the violence categorically". I get the impression that your definition of a "categorical denouncement" is really just complete submission to whatever the West wants to do.
"I ain't saying Christians in the past have not acted in the same fashion, but I can tell you now it is categorically out of fashion for killing in the name of...and don't even bring up Iraq."
Why not? Sore spot?
"We are making no money"
The majority of the citizens of the United States are seeing no financial benefit out of this. Defense contractors and security firms , on the other hand , are doing quite well for themselves.
"taken HUGE diplomatic gambles, HUGE gambles in human lives and all for the sake of expediting the Middle East out of the Middle Ages."
The Middle East got themselves out of the Middle Ages on their own quite awhile ago. This really has more to do with seizing strategic influence over one of the last areas
on Earth that contains significant amounts of a rapidly dwindling natural resource , without which the
economies of all major powers cannot function.
Well , I had a comment all prepared in response to the posts of Zerk and others , but the site blocked it somehow.
Instead , check out this article :
you've clearly never been to London! The Muslim community in London is outraged. 2 bombs went off in predominantly Muslim areas of London. Muslims here were attacked by media and bigot after 9/11 when they had done nothing wrong.
The Muslim community here renounces this acts absolutely.
And I am not sure where Christians are so perfect all of a sudden. Christians in America are responsible for some of the worst persecution imaginable against the homosexual community. Christians in America and England and other countries used the Bible to justify the slave trade and the oppression of the poor and the oppression of women. Still do on some of these.
in Unganda there is the Lord's Resistance Army which rapes and slaughters many in the name of God and Jesus. And let us not forget the crusades against Islam itself.
These acts that happened yesterday happened not all that far from my town. I am not far from London. People from my family travel to London everyday for work, through Kings Cross Station.
And still I will tell you I do not hold this against Muslims. I am a Christian and I go to church. And I do not hate Muslims. Muslims are good people.
Some people do evil and use religion to justify their views. they say "I am Muslim, God says I should kill you/" they say "I am Christian, God tells me to kill you." They speak lies.
Anonymous/Ash: I agree with some of the stuff you said, however some points:
1. Actually defense contractors and security firms in turn spend their money they earn in the USofA as well as the American Military. So the the Iraq war is some form of government spending.
2. This war is not about securing OIL in my opinion. It is about expediting the democratization of the Middle East. We spent much more money on the war than will ever be reaped in Oil profits for the USofA, albeit gov't spending.
I think we will reach an alternative fuel to OIL before it becomes a full blown crisis. Oil is short-term problem not a valid long-term strategic move.
3. I have a problem with the leaders of Islam. I don't want them to say, "Targeting violence against the whole is bad in the name Islam". In other words they can be construed as saying: "The risk in killing innocent ISLAMIC lives is a sin." Rather say, "Acts of violence in the name of Islam is NEVER justified". There is no wiggle room. I guarantee, you will be hard pressed to find a non-west Muslim statesman that will say this outright. Look at the polls. It will tell ya the conscious of a large proportion of the Islamic population.
1. Yes, you have given some good examples of Christian wrong doings -- albeit 200+ years ago. The Ugandan rapers and pillagers of the LRD is largely Christian moniker -- they are animistic. They really don't have much to do with Christain faith. Do the readin' -- you will see what i mean.
2. Look at every war/civil war in the world going on right now it is usually a muslim sect that cannot get along with its neighbor. I slightly think much of Islam is a some sort of members only religion, others out of the club really don't matter:
1. Southern Thailand Buddhists gov't vs. Christains
2. Nigeria: Christain South vs. Muslim North
3. Iran and Iraq (proxy): Shia vs. Sunni
4. Timor: Christain vs. Islam
5. Proxy war: Hindi vs. Islam (never heard of the Christain south fighting with the Hindi)
6. Uzbekistan: Islamic Rebels vs. Corrupt gov't
7. Afghanistan: Extremee Islamists vs. Moderate Islamic Afghani tribes and gov't
8. Kurdish Islam vs Islamic Bosnians vs. Croats vs. Serbian Orthodox
9. Algeria Touareg vs. Islamic gov
10. Sudan: Animistic/African/Christain south and west vs. Islamic North
11. Chechnya: Secular Russian gov't vs. Islamic warlords
12. Arab Islam vs. Kurdish Islam
13. Yemen: Tribes vs. Islamic Radicals
14. Jews vs. Palestinian and Rest of Islam
15. Lebanese Christians vs. Sunni Syrian
16. Extreme Wahabis vs. Saudi Royal Family
17. Ivory Coast vs. North Islam
18. Guarantee there will be brewing unrest in France. Ever been to Marseille? The French muslim population largely is poor, unemployed, unassimilated, illiterate in French (unless from French colony) and angry. The French are proud, nationalistic, largely secular and strangely principaled. I smell trouble a brewin'.
Number whatever....Yes, been to London and the muslim population is better assimilated and immersed into the British culture. Yet, it is nowhere as assimilated as the American Muslim. Yet you do have some problems in Sheffield and Birmingham with unemployment and alienation. The difference with a unemployed and alienated Muslim is that he or she will be MORE prone to blaming the ephemereal "west" and committing gross acts of violence. Where as the bubba in Los Angeles without a job might go kill a convience store clerk and take the money....
Yes, US has been involved in a lot of proxy wars, but never for land grabs, promoting Christianity, etc. Usually been in the name of freedom and stability.
I realize some of these are non sequitur, but you get the point. Not saying Islam is instigator in the aforementioned either...but they are involved. Enough rambling. I had to get some of this off me chest and write it down. Sure there are holes throughout....but perhaps you can ascertain some of the points.
I agree that the Ugandan LRD are not representing Christians! my point is equally Al-Quaida do not represent muslims.
Muslims, under the rule of Jihaad, are allowed to fight. However, there are similar conditions on this to St. Thomas Aquinas' view on Just War in his Summa Theologica.
Muslims may only fight against a corrupt and oppressive government, and only if it is the last option. For example, Muslims in Zimbabwe wouild be justified in fighting Robert Mugabe's reign of terror and evil. They would not, according to the Prophet Muhammed*, be justified in killing innocents in London, even if Tony Blair's government was an evil regime.
Extremeists, however, will use religion to suit their own ends. They do not like the West, and they want revenge for what we have done agaisnt them (and let us not for one moment deny our history). They are in the wrong as the Ugandan "Christians" are.
And Christians are still responsible for evil now against homosexuals in the USA. There is a case now where a 16 year old gay boy called Zach is being held against his will at a "treatment centre" because his parents think he is evil. They are stupid morons.
There is the KKK, who are as Christian as Al-Quaida are Muslim.
And evangelicals still have a pretty negative view of women in the church.
I am a Christian, and I am a former evangelical. And I am about to do a degree in Theology. I do know a lot about religion, it is the subject I study.
And I tell you Christians have been responsible for as many evils as Muslims.
I stand in solidarity with normal Muslims, they are people and I love them as such. They have done nothing wrong, but some people take their name and make it associated with bad. Do not forget the log in our own eye.
*The blessing of Allah be upon him and peace.
I have been unable to read the internet for a couple of days and everyone has posted.
My thought are...
What is the first thing you think of when you thing Terrorist.
Christian, no you think Islamic.
There is a point of law that if you help a person to kill, you are guilty as the person that does the killing. I feel the Islamic people could stop this, and they do not, therefore they are guilty. Not as simple as that, but I do not remove the guilt.
I also do not care how many of the there are in the world. They are still guilty.
They are looking the other way and in fear we allow them. The best they can do is blow themselves up, they cannot even wage a good war.
The great part and the part I learned in Iraq is they kill each other more, sort of like the Ghettos.
I am just tire of everyone knowing the number one person or suspect is an Islamic person and nobody can just say....
They are doing it again in the name of God, this is not God.